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Link Post Wed, Apr. 23, 2014 72 notes

Open Your Eyes: The Jaime/Cersei "Rape" Scene.

regalswag:

lovingastory:

regalswag:

lovingastory:

regalswag:

When it comes to adaptations, HBO’s Game of Thrones is probably one of the more courageous ones out there. For better or worse, the screenwriters (ostensibly with the blessing of GRRM) add or alter things that might have great impact or very little. There are some that are minor annoyances like…

The point is not that there aren’t already other people who rape in this story.

The point is that the show is presenting Jaime as a rapist AND AT THE SAME TIME as this big woobie we should care about. We don’t root for Craster. We don’t root for the Mad King. Jaime has done shitty things , he is flawed and as grey as you can get, but he does have, in the books, the one redeeming quality of being able to put himself in a woman’s shoes in spite of growing up in a terribly mysoginistc world. 

The point is that Jaime is canonically, in the books, the one male character that actively fights rape and the idea that rape is okay in any situation (within a marriage, with a prostitute, etc.). The fact that he has done one truly shitty thing (the attempted murder of Bran) that is in character (because Jaime is primarily motivated by the desire to protect his family/loved ones, no matter the cost) doesn’t mean that it is not completely stupid for the show to make him do all kinds of shitty thing, even those that are completely out of character, counting on the fact that the audience will love him anyway.

The scene was unnecessary and added only for shock value, it didn’t make sense for Jaime, and it obliterated the real stance of the one male character who actually takes time in the books to give voice to the fact that the raping that all too casually takes place in the Westerosi world is, you know, WRONG and not something that “happens anyway”. Not to mention, the whole thing will probably be glossed over in show-Jaime’s “path to become a true knight” (tm) and its impact on Cersei will most probably be dismissed (I have already seen people declare she deserved it because she is evil, anyway).

That is what people are rightly pissed about. It has happened too many times already and this was just one time too much.

(also, honestly, I doubt these writers are smarter than me or most viewers, given their poor understanding of their source material, thank you very much)

I apologize for how long it took me to reply to this, but I’ve been out most of the day and while I did type something up on my phone it seems that it was lost to time.  

Initially, I feel that you didn’t actually read very much of what I said and chose to instead posit what you felt was my belief and then why it was incorrect.  At no point did I say, “rape happens, get over it” — however, I did state that it is far from the exception in the scenario and so the presence of a rape, if indeed it was one, does not diminish the story.  From the blatant amount of belly-aching and “this is the end for me,” I did find it ridiculous that people had even made it that far into the series and were still surprised by things like that occurring.

I personally find people that believe Jaime is a “good guy” to be about as obtuse as Ned was when he believed Baelish despite the fact that he said never to believe him.  Jaime, the character, is certainly someone that has his flaws and his favors and though he is harder on himself in some regards than he should be, that you want the incestuous attempted child killer to be the sterling hero of this story is the problem. 

Now, I’m not someone that likes to repeat himself, I’m afraid, so I won’t be reiterating in detail why I felt what I did again; however, I do ask why you believe it was a pointless inclusion if it, itself deals with the development of a character.  I also would ask you not muddy the waters again with vacuous statements like, “some people say she deserved it,” as that is neither what I said nor what I indicated at all and adds nothing more than a false justification to your own preconceived argument.  Yes, people say a lot of stupid shit — the OP is answering a good example of that.

As for Jaime fighting against rape, I don’t really know if that holds.  We know that he fights rapists, or rather he dislikes them, but we do not see Jaime actively crusading to stop all rape from happening. I believe your examples are: Pretty Pia, Brienne, and Rhaella?  The last being when he asked if they ought protect the queen from her king, who was actively harming her.  In the case of the first two, these are women that he identifies with on a personal level: Pretty Pia was the comely girl that fawned over him and was then reduced to a miserable and grim reminder of the war’s toll on the Riverlands, whereas Brienne was the woman that had protected him to that point.

Jaime’s stated preference, I believe, is that he is a proud man that greatly dislikes when gross misconduct occurs to people he knows.  Any man that is willing to push a child out of a window because he saw him fucking his sister, is not the moral center you need to have.  If Davos went around raping people, I would not be having this conversation.  But again, I don’t even think Jaime saw himself as a rapist, just as I am not certain Cersei saw him as one either.  Jaime seemed to be returning to who he was (in his mind), which was the man that could protect Cersei in her vulnerable and defeated position.

That, again, requires us seeing next episode to know if that is the case.  Just saying, “she said no,” does not hold any weight in the context of AGOT because we’ve seen consensual sex scenes in the books:

"Stop that!" the woman said.  Bran heard the sudden slap of flesh on flash, then the man’s laughter.

"All this talk is getting very tiresome, sister," the man said. "Come here and be quiet."

"Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it, Oh, please…" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away.

This is from the source material — the source material you previously used to defend your stance.  We can clearly see that they had a relationship that dealt with Jaime being forward and Cersei feigning disinterest. I say feigning because in later chapters we also see how she felt complete when he was within her, etc.

With that in mind, it makes sense that Jaime would ignore her denials as when he was [complete], she acted the same way.  If this holds true or not is a mystery.  What is not a mystery, is that this does not present him in a new light if you’ve read the books. 

So once we dismiss the “she said no,” argument, I again ask that everyone sit down and watch what follows.  

If nothing else, the show deserves that much respect.  Also, i saw in your tags that you’re taking a break from the fandom, so have a fun journey off to wherever it is you go.  When you return I hope you are willing to read things more critically.

You do realize that in all those instances that you quoted where Cersei was feigning disinstered the context of the relationship was completely different, right? She was feigning disinterest in a roleplay that was, as is clear in the books, common to the relationship, at a moment when the characters actually HAD a relationship. In the scene in the show Cersei has refused Jaime for weeks, not to mention has just physically recoiled from him in disgust; their are not having an encounter born of mutual lust, he is forcing himself on her out of spite (“you are a hateful woman”). If that was not the way they wanted to convey it, well, they failed at writing/editing. As proved by the fact that the vast majority of watchers (me included) perceived the scene as rape. Intention doesn’t really matter if you can’t convey it in your work, does it?

You can portray rape and violence but the way you do it matters, and it’s that, and not the themes themselves, that people are getting squeaminsh about. I’ve been reading this series since I was 20 but it never felt icky to me the way the show sometimes does.

And yes, Jaime opposes rape because he identifies with the victims. And… so? He sees how it is from their point of view. The point of view of the victim is the one I’m interested in if rape is depicted in a media, but the show has a tendency to gloss over the victims/sexualize the thing, and that makes me think they’ll do the same with Cersei here (which was the source of my comment on her - as you may see if you reread what I’ve said. I also think some viewers won’t complain, as I mentioned).

I don’t want Jaime as the hero. That was kinda one of my concerns? There are few heroes, if at all to be honest, in this series, and it’s actually one of its strong points. The director of the episode, though, filmed that scene and then went and said that Jaime is truly “a good knight like Brienne”. It seems to me they are trying to sell him as the woobie hero and at the same time throwing rape in the equation, which is just stupid. The problem with these writers is that they can’t do subtle. See the way Littlefinger practically screams “I’M EVIL” while he was such a more nuanced (and interesting) character in the books (scheming all you want, yeah, but cunning in hiding it, which also made Ned a lot less blatantly stupid) I want the interesting, grey, trope-subverting Jaime I enjoyed in the books… and still I don’t want him altered in central aspects of his character. Is that really that much to ask? Imho, the writers have been misinterpreting him a lot this season, and seeing as he is one of my favourite characters yeah, I don’t really like it.

People deserve respect, the show adaptation doesn’t deserve anything it doesn’t earn. It is not the first time it derails in elements that people find significant, or that it depicts things in a way people find peculiarly disturbing, so people are complaining. That’s what happens when media goes out in the public, and as long as watchers do not harass the writers in real life, I don’t get why they should watch tv according to your much arguable critic view. I’m pretty content with my stance, but thank you, I do appreciate your hope and (not at all condescending) concern.

(P.s.: the place I’m going to to have my journey is called untagging the tags. Do try it. They say it’s brill in may.)

You’re doing that thing, again, where you are not actually reading what someone else says and simply providing what you feel.  That may work in a conversation with your mother if she isn’t paying attention, but it just will not work here.

I chose to rewatch the scene in question several times on HBOGo so that I might see if I was misremembering anything at all.

In truth, my recollection was even more severe than the scene was.

Once we accept that the Cersei/Jaime relationship has already been shown to feature the “no doesn’t mean no” dynamic of romance literature it comes out to be all the less damning.

  1. Cersei is crying before Joffrey when Jaime arrives.  She begs him to fix things.  Jaime, as was said, attempts to fulfill his old role by comforting her.  He kisses her — she eagerly kisses him back, grabbing his face as this happens.  She then remembers Joffrey is there and recoils. Hardly in disgust, mind you.
  2. Jaime pursues Cersei until her back is to the dais.  This now places them exactly in the position from their first shown sexual interaction in the book.  Jaime continues to kiss Cersei, she pushes against him and says no, then moves her hands to grab him and pull him closer. She continues to say ‘stop’ as she hugs him, pulling him closer.
  3. They go down to the floor, Cersei repeating. “it isn’t right,” as she holds onto him.  He says “I don’t care,” when it shows her hand firmly taking hold of him.

So I’m not even beginning to see what you are and I can only imagine that people have been paying far more attention to the conflict within Cersei — the desire to have sex with Jaime against how weird it is to do it in front of their son’s corpse — as being the only sign that there was no consent given.  

None of the above is inferred, you can watch the scene a hundred times and get those things factually depicted.

Actually possibly you are the one not reading what I wrote? About the context being different because they were NOT together anymore on the show as Cersei had been refusing Jaime for weeks (and the whole thing was initiated as a consequence of Jaime’s rage - i.e. “you are a hateful woman”)? I replied to your objection that that was just roleplay - that was my point. (also imho her disgust is quite clear… she recoils the moment he touches her with his golden hand) I’m kinda amused that you would reproach me for my unwillingness to take what you say into consideration, everything considered - but whatever, dude, it’s ok. If you find the scene IC, you find it IC. Whatever floats your boat. I just don’t agree, but I doubt either of us will lose our sleep on that.




Video Post Wed, Apr. 23, 2014 6,936 notes

joffri:

bOOK DAARIO IS. OUT OF CONTROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLL

(via mademoiselleviola)

#lol#got



Quote Post Wed, Apr. 23, 2014 244 notes

“In fact the Gods were as puzzled by all this as the wizards were, but they were powerless to do anything and in any case were engaged in an aeons-old battle with the Ice Giants, who had refused to return the lawnmower.”


Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic (via discworldquotes)

(via soverygeeky)







Audio PostWed, Apr. 23, 2014 3 notes

Title: Bird Of Prey Artist: Editors 0 plays

Editors - Bird Of Prey

I wrap myself in you
A little something that I can cling to
Oh, there you are, my love
There you are, my love

(Source: hoseog)




Link Post Wed, Apr. 23, 2014 72 notes

Open Your Eyes: The Jaime/Cersei "Rape" Scene.

regalswag:

lovingastory:

regalswag:

When it comes to adaptations, HBO’s Game of Thrones is probably one of the more courageous ones out there. For better or worse, the screenwriters (ostensibly with the blessing of GRRM) add or alter things that might have great impact or very little. There are some that are minor annoyances like…

The point is not that there aren’t already other people who rape in this story.

The point is that the show is presenting Jaime as a rapist AND AT THE SAME TIME as this big woobie we should care about. We don’t root for Craster. We don’t root for the Mad King. Jaime has done shitty things , he is flawed and as grey as you can get, but he does have, in the books, the one redeeming quality of being able to put himself in a woman’s shoes in spite of growing up in a terribly mysoginistc world. 

The point is that Jaime is canonically, in the books, the one male character that actively fights rape and the idea that rape is okay in any situation (within a marriage, with a prostitute, etc.). The fact that he has done one truly shitty thing (the attempted murder of Bran) that is in character (because Jaime is primarily motivated by the desire to protect his family/loved ones, no matter the cost) doesn’t mean that it is not completely stupid for the show to make him do all kinds of shitty thing, even those that are completely out of character, counting on the fact that the audience will love him anyway.

The scene was unnecessary and added only for shock value, it didn’t make sense for Jaime, and it obliterated the real stance of the one male character who actually takes time in the books to give voice to the fact that the raping that all too casually takes place in the Westerosi world is, you know, WRONG and not something that “happens anyway”. Not to mention, the whole thing will probably be glossed over in show-Jaime’s “path to become a true knight” (tm) and its impact on Cersei will most probably be dismissed (I have already seen people declare she deserved it because she is evil, anyway).

That is what people are rightly pissed about. It has happened too many times already and this was just one time too much.

(also, honestly, I doubt these writers are smarter than me or most viewers, given their poor understanding of their source material, thank you very much)

I apologize for how long it took me to reply to this, but I’ve been out most of the day and while I did type something up on my phone it seems that it was lost to time.  

Initially, I feel that you didn’t actually read very much of what I said and chose to instead posit what you felt was my belief and then why it was incorrect.  At no point did I say, “rape happens, get over it” — however, I did state that it is far from the exception in the scenario and so the presence of a rape, if indeed it was one, does not diminish the story.  From the blatant amount of belly-aching and “this is the end for me,” I did find it ridiculous that people had even made it that far into the series and were still surprised by things like that occurring.

I personally find people that believe Jaime is a “good guy” to be about as obtuse as Ned was when he believed Baelish despite the fact that he said never to believe him.  Jaime, the character, is certainly someone that has his flaws and his favors and though he is harder on himself in some regards than he should be, that you want the incestuous attempted child killer to be the sterling hero of this story is the problem. 

Now, I’m not someone that likes to repeat himself, I’m afraid, so I won’t be reiterating in detail why I felt what I did again; however, I do ask why you believe it was a pointless inclusion if it, itself deals with the development of a character.  I also would ask you not muddy the waters again with vacuous statements like, “some people say she deserved it,” as that is neither what I said nor what I indicated at all and adds nothing more than a false justification to your own preconceived argument.  Yes, people say a lot of stupid shit — the OP is answering a good example of that.

As for Jaime fighting against rape, I don’t really know if that holds.  We know that he fights rapists, or rather he dislikes them, but we do not see Jaime actively crusading to stop all rape from happening. I believe your examples are: Pretty Pia, Brienne, and Rhaella?  The last being when he asked if they ought protect the queen from her king, who was actively harming her.  In the case of the first two, these are women that he identifies with on a personal level: Pretty Pia was the comely girl that fawned over him and was then reduced to a miserable and grim reminder of the war’s toll on the Riverlands, whereas Brienne was the woman that had protected him to that point.

Jaime’s stated preference, I believe, is that he is a proud man that greatly dislikes when gross misconduct occurs to people he knows.  Any man that is willing to push a child out of a window because he saw him fucking his sister, is not the moral center you need to have.  If Davos went around raping people, I would not be having this conversation.  But again, I don’t even think Jaime saw himself as a rapist, just as I am not certain Cersei saw him as one either.  Jaime seemed to be returning to who he was (in his mind), which was the man that could protect Cersei in her vulnerable and defeated position.

That, again, requires us seeing next episode to know if that is the case.  Just saying, “she said no,” does not hold any weight in the context of AGOT because we’ve seen consensual sex scenes in the books:

"Stop that!" the woman said.  Bran heard the sudden slap of flesh on flash, then the man’s laughter.

"All this talk is getting very tiresome, sister," the man said. "Come here and be quiet."

"Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it, Oh, please…" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away.

This is from the source material — the source material you previously used to defend your stance.  We can clearly see that they had a relationship that dealt with Jaime being forward and Cersei feigning disinterest. I say feigning because in later chapters we also see how she felt complete when he was within her, etc.

With that in mind, it makes sense that Jaime would ignore her denials as when he was [complete], she acted the same way.  If this holds true or not is a mystery.  What is not a mystery, is that this does not present him in a new light if you’ve read the books. 

So once we dismiss the “she said no,” argument, I again ask that everyone sit down and watch what follows.  

If nothing else, the show deserves that much respect.  Also, i saw in your tags that you’re taking a break from the fandom, so have a fun journey off to wherever it is you go.  When you return I hope you are willing to read things more critically.

You do realize that in all those instances that you quoted where Cersei was feigning disinstered the context of the relationship was completely different, right? She was feigning disinterest in a roleplay that was, as is clear in the books, common to the relationship, at a moment when the characters actually HAD a relationship. In the scene in the show Cersei has refused Jaime for weeks, not to mention has just physically recoiled from him in disgust; their are not having an encounter born of mutual lust, he is forcing himself on her out of spite (“you are a hateful woman”). If that was not the way they wanted to convey it, well, they failed at writing/editing. As proved by the fact that the vast majority of watchers (me included) perceived the scene as rape. Intention doesn’t really matter if you can’t convey it in your work, does it?

You can portray rape and violence but the way you do it matters, and it’s that, and not the themes themselves, that people are getting squeaminsh about. I’ve been reading this series since I was 20 but it never felt icky to me the way the show sometimes does.

And yes, Jaime opposes rape because he identifies with the victims. And… so? He sees how it is from their point of view. The point of view of the victim is the one I’m interested in if rape is depicted in a media, but the show has a tendency to gloss over the victims/sexualize the thing, and that makes me think they’ll do the same with Cersei here (which was the source of my comment on her - as you may see if you reread what I’ve said. I also think some viewers won’t complain, as I mentioned).

I don’t want Jaime as the hero. That was kinda one of my concerns? There are few heroes, if at all to be honest, in this series, and it’s actually one of its strong points. The director of the episode, though, filmed that scene and then went and said that Jaime is truly “a good knight like Brienne”. It seems to me they are trying to sell him as the woobie hero and at the same time throwing rape in the equation, which is just stupid. The problem with these writers is that they can’t do subtle. See the way Littlefinger practically screams “I’M EVIL” while he was such a more nuanced (and interesting) character in the books (scheming all you want, yeah, but cunning in hiding it, which also made Ned a lot less blatantly stupid) I want the interesting, grey, trope-subverting Jaime I enjoyed in the books… and still I don’t want him altered in central aspects of his character. Is that really that much to ask? Imho, the writers have been misinterpreting him a lot this season, and seeing as he is one of my favourite characters yeah, I don’t really like it.

People deserve respect, the show adaptation doesn’t deserve anything it doesn’t earn. It is not the first time it derails in elements that people find significant, or that it depicts things in a way people find peculiarly disturbing, so people are complaining. That’s what happens when media goes out in the public, and as long as watchers do not harass the writers in real life, I don’t get why they should watch tv according to your much arguable critic view. I’m pretty content with my stance, but thank you, I do appreciate your hope and (not at all condescending) concern.

(P.s.: the place I’m going to to have my journey is called untagging the tags. Do try it. They say it’s brill in may.)




monkey-tennis replied to your post “After long deliberation, I decided that, fuck it, these douchebags are…”
Opposite of Bat man is the highest insult in the 7 realms.
The credit for the insult goes to Abed from NBC’s “Community”, but I agree the sentiment behind it is pretty strong. : P






Video Post Tue, Apr. 22, 2014 179 notes

fenrirsfangs:

March Book Photo Challenge: Freebie (Mar. 30)

Terry Pratchett’s Death series from the Discworld Collection:

  • Mort
  • Reaper Man
  • Soul Music
  • Hogfather

(via the-library-and-step-on-it)




Photo Post Tue, Apr. 22, 2014 19,144 notes

(Source: ForGIFs.com, via alibabafosho)



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